Nieuwe Neurergus??

[Markus]

What is it for a Neurergus??

Markus

[Kenny]

Those look like the N.derjugini that was showed in Gersfeld this year. Where did you get that picture?

[Kenny]

Ow now that I see your juvenile picture I'm pretty sure this is microspilotus  ;D Great!

[anapsid]

The Neurergus on your picture is a Neurergus crocatus. Can you tell us where your animals are from?

Willi

[Kenny]

The Neurergus on your picture is a Neurergus crocatus. Can you tell us where your animals are from?

Willi

I never saw orange spots behind the eyes on crocatus? Nor did I see irregular, ovale shaped spots on them. So I really think this is microspilotus? I can be wrong though but they do look 100% like the juveniles Günther had pictures from.

[Markus]

The picture from the young Neurergus is 100% not N. crocatus. They are a young N. derjugini. And think not, that the first is a crocatus is.
Markus

[Coen Deurloo]

It sure looks a lot like N. derjugini, Do you have some belly shots? I'm not entirely sure what the determination points are...but the blended spots are, I think, pretty unique for N. derjugini.

[anapsid]

I am pretty sure that the adult Neurergus is a Neurergus crocatus (jpg 16 and 4). I did not refer to the juvenile animal. For a definitive identification a picture of the underside would be helpfull.


Willi 

[Markus]

The dark is drawing by the species until well into the belly. By crocatus the belly is very orange. The dark drawing stops on the side.

Markus

[anapsid]

Both animals are Neurergus crocatus. There is a high variation in different populations of this species. The  crocatus with the ''very orange'' belly pattern (2jpg, crocatus jpg) is characteristic of animals from around Aqrah.

Willi

[Markus]

That the animal from the 2. picture a crocatus from Aqrah is thati know too. But the other Neurergus has not the drawing as a crocatus.

[A34]

The dark is drawing by the species until well into the belly. By crocatus the belly is very orange. The dark drawing stops on the side.

Markus

I also think its N.crocatus ..
look at this pictures  http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.crocatus/N.croc.adult.Erweiterung.htm
The dark drawing seems te be simelar like your species picture ..

Also you can see verry good on picture 3, that salamander have got some spots in his neck

[Markus]

They see from above, but different as crocatus. The drawing is different.

Markus

[Kenny]

I still think microspilotus...The irregular shapes of the dots, the orange speckles behind the head of the juvenile. Maybe Sergé can shed some light over it. If I remember correctly you need to see the lip-region to differenciate microspilotus to derjugini in adult specimens.

http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.microspilotus/NEURERGUS.MICROSPILOTUS.htm

[Sergé Bogaerts]

I agree with Willi.
They are both crocatus, but from different populations. And I know that a german (NOT a newt specialist, but more into spiders and reptiles) has been in Iraq this Spring. So he was there before the two german research groups (Fleck et al. and Schneider & Schneider). By the way Fleck has just published data and pictures in Elaphe.

This german has offered two groups of some animals on the internet and on markets. The first group were from Aqrah. These are for us "typical ones" also bred by me and which have large yellow spots in adults, but not in juveniles! The spots grow as the animals mature. The other animals he sold were from the north of Iraq and are very similar to the ones shown from SE Turkey by father and son Schneider in their Herpetozoa paper. The animals shown here must be these animals from the north of Iraq from this second group?

We just begin to discover the variety between populations of N. crocatus and it seems that the variety is much higher. But then again, this is also true for Neurergus strauchii. But without locality the animals are useless for science nor for captive breeding projects.